SWTOR Scaling - The Truth

Yes, you are correct in that Leland says Drew's response is "official as it's going to get" in terms of a response to a question that also gets a similar answer from official material:

Star Wars Force and Destiny Core Rulebook wrote:Once known as Medriaas, Nathema was an agriworld of the Sith Empire at the time when the Sith also controlled the Chorlian sector. An ancient Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Vitiate destroyed all life on Nathema with a ritual designed to grant him immortality. A transcription of the ritual was recorded by Darth Revan and served as the inspiration for Lord Kaan's thought bomb on Ruusan.

And in the following scans you prove what is fundamental about author intent/quotes - you always take the source material first - meaning that we shouldn't opt for whatever a developer or writer says if it contradicts with source material.



Which is crucial because, as I'll later explain, what the authors say is mostly directly contradictory to the source material.

A - Who is the Outlander?

Firstly, yes, it is possible that the Outlander can be any of the classes, but we need to use logic and rationale to determine the most likely class as only one of them exists in-universe post KOTFE. Boyd and co. have said that there's no "canonical" class, but obviously that is because he doesn't want to start an argument amongst the SWTOR players. Take Revan for example,  he could've looked like anything you wanted and been a female dark-sider. But the Revan novel had to give him a canonical appearance, and this would be the same for SWTOR - a class and gender would have to be selected.

We know that it is the Jedi Knight for numerous reasons:

1) He has the most obvious connection to Vitiate - the prophesied champion, the successor to Revan, literally beat the Voice
2) All promotional material has the male Jedi Knight as the protagonist
3) He is essentially the main character in vanilla SWTOR, and thus makes sense he progresses beyond Act 3 as I will elaborate further
4) He is the most powerful of the class stories

B - Operations and the Story

This leads me on to the next part, which is that not every protagonist goes past act 3 - they don't all go to Ilum, Makeb, Rishi, etc. This should be obvious in the fact that those expansions are purely solo content. It can only be 1, as seen with the Dread where you go down to Oricon and have specific-sided missions that result in the same ending, and different task forces altogether. In the case of Revan, only one of them from a certain class can meet Theron and Lana - this is obvious due to the content within the expansions itself, such as not being able to trust anyone else, attack on Korriban, Tython, etc.


As for proof the Operations IU are done either Solo (or with a small team, not the protagonists) in the case of Soa and Revan, I'll provide the IU ramifications and issues and well as quotes/videos that support this:

- Dialogue is explicit in that all Operations are just solo, apart from Soa and Revan which will be addressed

- The cutscenes show outright that it's just you.

- The website switches between saying the Republic and Empire have sent people down, or just one of them for multiple operations

- There is never an explicit mention of any of the other protagonists when there should be if they have all met. Especially in KOTFE when you meet the other classes' companions, would have been nice to get a scene like "yeah me and your husband go way back", or even a mention on "where are they? we were the best strike team ever". The Outlander doesn't even know who the other protagonists' companions are.

- There is also emphasis later in the story on how great/odd it is that Jedi and Sith have worked together. This seems meaningless if the Jedi and Sith have worked together on galactic threats many times in past.

- Speaking of which, it makes absolutely no sense why the teams wouldn't attack each other lol. "I'm the Emperors Wrath" "I killed the Emperor" doesn't seem like a conversation that ends nicely if it were to occur.

- After the EV operation, there is no mention of the opposing faction being there. In fact, beforehand there is mention to ensure that the other faction doesn't follow, and on the Republic side it's said that an imperial team went down first but never came back. The same goes, obviously, for the other Operations.


Terror from Beyond:







Dread Masters:






The infamous Marr quote where he says "even you cannot slay the Dread Masters single-handedly" is followed up by "Hargrev's Task Force". Who makes up this task force? Hargrev and a bunch of random Imperials...







Yes, it's all very clear it is just one person going down to join up with the miniature task force.


Revan

As much as you may not want to hear it Ant, Revan unfortunately did not take on all of the protagonists at once. Let's take a look at what the game says:


Yes that's right - heroes from within your faction. That obviously cannot be all protagonists. But if you want to say okay well still it could be the protagonists from that side, refer to the points above about why that can't be. Don't forget the sense of urgency as well; Revan needs to be stopped ASAP before he revives Vitiate. Barsen'thor could be halfway across the galaxy (remember, the Barsen'thor didn't go to Rishi, or tag along to Yavin) and so it makes no sense for them to wait for more protagonists to arrive. Instead it makes more sense that the Hero brought along a small team that were already on Yavin to the Temple of Sacrifice.


Soa

-After the EV operation, there is no mention of the opposing faction being there. In fact, beforehand there is mention to ensure that the other faction doesn't follow, and on the Republic side it's said that an imperial team went down first but never came back. The same goes, obviously, for the other Operations.

-Hero hears about Soa and decides to call up the smuggler...who has never faced anything like this nor would he even have a reason to hear about. The team in question could just be Hero's squad, given the sense of urgency here as well.

- And again, refer to earlier points on why this can't make sense

Just for further evidence, the Hand state that the Wrath shouldn't have gotten involved in anything post-Act 3. You only do so because you chose to do that, nullifying the other class's progression:




To conclude:

- Not all the protagonists make it past Act 3
- Not all the protagonists partake in the Operations, only 1
- The Hero of Tython logically makes the most sense to be the one progressing




B - The Outlander's performance


Now that we've established the Hero is clearly the most likely protagonist taking up the role as the Outlander, here's some points as to why they perform at the same level as the others:

1) The first, most obvious reason is that it's a video game and budgets exist. It just makes sense for all of the protagonists to perform the same
2) Given that we know none of the protagonists pass Act 3, the post-Act 3 growth could be enough to put them on similar levels given they all
3) Valkorion could be bolstering them more than the Hero

You claim that because they perform the same, the Hero must be weaker - despite the possibilities above, which should definitely be considered. Funnily enough, the following quote you provided caps the Outlander over the Hero of Tython regardless, yet for some reason you thought it only applied to Marr and Satele?:





Boyd claims the trooper could beat/be competitive with the other classes, yet the developers say the same thing, including Hall Hood himself:





Nothing within TOR ever indicates that the Hero stagnated. Everything directly says you must become more powerful to defeat Arcann - that's baked into the narrative, even when you are the Hero. His defeat of Vitiate in Act 3 is never forgotten about at all, but rather fully whole Valkorion is incredibly stronger. If you're looking for further proof of growth throughout vanilla, the is that fact that he is the one doing the Operations solo, constantly fighting which is said in SOR Revan where he gets explicitly more powerful:

Spirit of Orgus Din wrote:"Since you set out to defeat the Emperor, you've been fighting almost nonstop. You've been waist-deep in dirt and fear and blood. Since the Emperor's fall, the war's only gotten uglier."

Spirit and Orgus Din and Hero of Tython wrote:"What we did today- I lied a bit. This wasn't just about helping Rishi or reminding you why you fight. It was about healing an old scar you've almost forgotten. One that still aches inside you."

"The Emperor."

"You were under his control, his darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you, you pushed the memories of that training down deep. I can bring those memories back. You're strong enough to handle them. Let the light cure them, make you whole."

"The Emperor immersed me in the dark side. Darth Revan was the only other Jedi to come back from that. My memories of that time are power. That power is my right and my weapon. I claim it."

Hero of Tython after having beat Vitiate was constantly fight, single-handedly defeated the likes of the Dread Masters, Terror from Beyond, etc, gets explicit growth in Shadow of Revan. Why, all of a sudden, would he be less powerful in KOTFE when nothing possibly alludes to it?

As for Hall Hood talking about how the Hero truly destroyed Vitiate, I'll get into that later. But let's recap:

- Only one of the classes progress through Act 3, and logically it is the Hero of Tython
- There are many ways to excuse everyone's performance in KOTFE/KOTET
- Regardless, the Outlander caps over Hero of Tython
- Hero of Tython gets explicity more powerful at the time of Shadow of Revan
- Growth is only indicated for the Hero, not decline or stagnation


C - The Outlander's superiority to Arcann and Vaylin

Arcann

First I'll start with Arcann. Now yes as you've pointed out, the Outlander was bolstered by Valkorion during their duel, which resulted in Arcann's defeat. However, if you choose to kill Arcann, you no longer have the Valkorion's Favor amp:




And of course on the light-side of things, Arcann concedes multiple times:


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As a quick conclusion:
- If you go down the dark path, the Outlander beats a rage-fuelled Arcann with no amp
- Arcann concedes multiple times and legitimately thinks the Outlander can beat Valkorion

Vaylin

Your argument for Vaylin > Outlander relies entirely on Boyd's commentary and additional evidence. What Boyd says goes directly against what is shown in-game, and as Chee says we need to take all that evidence first before we consider Boyd's approach, which is simply incorrect.

Valkorion tanks the initial hit as we know, which accounts for the "partial credit" Boyd was talking about, but the Outlander is still able to push through; recall Valkorion even saying "I have no more influence over Vaylin. Only you are strong enough to stop this", to which he does. The Outlander has no amp anymore - to put it into Valkorion's terms, he has become "a vessel of supreme power" capable of holding Valkorion's full power. He's overcome the amp, he's grown beyond it. Something you ignore in Boyd's commentary is the fact he says that even if Vaylin has more raw power, the Outlander still has the skill/experience necessary to close that gap. Ergo in a fight, the Outlander will beat her, as he did.

Afterwards, Arcann thinks Outlander absorbed Vaylin's spirit/power, which whilst we know was Valkorion speaks to the fact that he thinks the Outlander is more powerful than her:


You can also beat Arcann and Vaylin solo in your mindscape, however I know that you know this and unfortunately can't provide a clip at this time. It should be noted that Dramath should have little to no contribution to this fight either way, given that he lost to adolescent Tenebrae and was stripped of the Force. I know you have provided quotes of Boyd saying we shouldn't take mindscapes literally, but we have the evidence of how a weaker Outlander beat Arcann, and then goes on to solo Vaylin so it adds up.


Then you have the Six Gods, which are objectively the most difficult boss fights in SWTOR:




And the weakest of which is said to be the Outlander's greatest test yet:



Which makes complete sense given their power. I won't go over it, for that feel free to read my blog https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t4522-the-power-of-the-six-gods but to summarize:
- Tyth's first depiction is him being put with the Eternal Fleet, capable of "frying" Iokath and oneshots an Eternal Warship
- All the gods are stated to be capable of galactic devastation/destruction
- All the gods are the most dangerous beings in the galaxy

And when you take all that evidence into account, it makes it clear why they would be above Vaylin. To refer to my earlier points, given that they are Operations, the Outlander still beats them solo. For additional evidence:



The Operation is about the Outlander's destiny, his greatest challenge yet. It's all personal and direct that it's just him, which the cutscenes portray as well:



The Outlander has also become the prophesied Demon Saviour, an Immortal God of Gods:






For the cherry on top, we'll look at Echoes of Oblivion.

The Outlander wrote:"I killed you all once - give me a reason and I’ll do it again."

Senya wrote:"You truly are monster"

Yeah, not even Senya denies it.

And of course, in Tenebrae's final attack, who outperforms everyone? The Outlander.



Let's do a summary here:
- Boyd's commentary goes directly against what's shown in-game, even if we go with what he says then he still says that the Outlander won due to better skill/experience
- Outlander grows beyond Valkorion's amp
- Outlander can beat a rage-fuelled Arcann
- Arcann concedes multiple times and thinks the Outlander can beat Valkorion
- The Outlander has become a "vessel of supreme power"
- The Outlander still manages to best Vaylin and push through her maelstrom
- Arcann thinks the Outlander absorbed Vaylin's strength
- Outlander can beat both Arcann and Vaylin solo in the mindscape
- The Gods are the  Outlander's greatest test yet, who are ludicrously powerful, and beats them all by himself
- Senya doesn't die that Outlander can beat the family again in EOO
- Outlander outperforms everyone in EOO

It is absolutely crystal-clear that the Outlander has become more powerful than both Arcann and Vaylin. Your entire argument against the numerous amounts of evidence is "Boyd said" when Boyd is simply wrong; material takes precedence over authorial intent.

With all the points made it's clear that:
- The Outlander should be the Hero of Tython and still directly scales above him
- The Outlander surpasses Arcann and Vaylin
- Even without Hero scaling, the Outlander is still above the Hero

There's no need for me to address his supremacy, you've done that for me. I will, however, go on to discuss Ziost.

A - Ziost

Boyd being contradictory here in that Vitiate needs a little bit of prep work to do Ziost, given he agreed with this:

On Ziost his spirit controls beings and then uses to kill other beings then posses more, it's a cycle until I think it reaches a point where he's able to consume the planet.


Force ritual and the use of Zildrog aren't necessarily excluding one another. Even if Vitiate used a particular mean to end people's lives, I think he would still need to perform a ritual in order to catch the spirits of the deads. In the end, no matter said murdering means, that's not what will be remembered. People who are Force Sensitive can feel the death of a whole world through the Force... if someone siphons the energy of the population of an entire planet, someone is bound to feel it. The latter is much more troubling than the former, since there are a lot of way to effectively kill entire populations in the matter of seconds, while there isn't that much appearance of one being eating said population.

What Boyd might be referring to is the cycle when Vitiate is killing people, and he does that to a point where he's able to wipe out the planet. Remember, this is an incredibly weakened Vitiate who woke up from death, and as the devs have said he can "possess planets whilst sipping wine".

B - Contradictions to the Game

Boyd also talks about the ritual in the Jedi Knight storyline and how it wouldn't make sense if Vitiate could just planet-bust off the curb, yet that's exactly what is stated and shown in Shadow of Revan:

Hero of Tython wrote:"When he last tried, it was through a ritual that I stopped. How could he possibly repeat it now?"

Darth Marr wrote:"I would rather not give him the opportunity to show us."

In the Sith Warrior's vision, we see Yavin exploded and the galaxy being destroyed instantly, despite Vitiate's methods not being a ritual:



And the following quote implies that if he returned strong enough he would've been able to do it right away, which is what the Warrior's vision implies:

Vitiate Codex Entry wrote:The man now called Vitiate by those who once served him was not strong enough to usurp all life on Yavin 4 after his reawakening.

Lana as well makes note that everything feels more final:

Lana Beniko wrote:"Our lives have been on the line before but this is different somehow, it feels more immediate. More final.

Of course this brings contradictions to the Jedi Knight storyline, so perhaps he either consumed Yavin instantly which then gave him the power to enact his galaxy ritual - which is exactly how Vitiate's starts off, with a bunch of simultaneous deaths.

In the original plan for the game, if Vitiate were to be awakened he would literally rip apart the balance between light and dark which would annihilate the galaxy, with seemingly no prep:



To do a quick summary:
- Boyd's "prep work" could very much be a weakened Vitiate causing death which in turn caused him to grow in power to the point he was able to destroy the planet, thus it seems reasonable to say that a fully-powered Vitiate can do it off the cuff
- The vision shows that Yavin is annihilated, and the codex says that Vitiate could have destroyed it if he returned to full strength
- SOR feels more "final" for Lana and the Hero
- In the original plan for the game, Vitiate's awakening would have torn the light and dark side apart which in turn would destroy the galaxy
- The devs have said Valkorion can "possess planets whilst sipping wine"

C - Manipulations and the real truth

Firstly,  Satele saying that Outlander proved Valkorion could be beaten doesn’t take away from anything; he did beat him. Lana’s claims come from the fact she thinks that a weakened Vitiate is scared of the player and didn’t try to mind dominate her again. This is untrue, as Vitiate laughs in the face of the player and wants them alive, and then Ziost happens, in which Marr sends an email saying that Vitiate may be more powerful than they thought:



Which leads me on to another point - the narrative around Vitiate isn’t that he isn’t actually this powerful, it’s that he’s actually more powerful and everyone constantly underestimates him, which everyone says that they have done:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:“We underestimated his power. When we confronted him, he didn’t even have to fight us. Instead, he broke our wills. He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding. He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed.

And in times like KOTFE where we see an unparalleled display of a Force lightning storm, we are told that Valkorion is weakened:





Boyd also claims that Vitiate made it so nobody would ever challenge him, yet they have and we know exactly how that went:

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

SWTOR: Revan wrote:“He attacked a dozen of the most powerful Sith Lords in their seats of power simultaneously? How many troops does he have?”

“The Imperial Guard were only unleashed on Nyriss and two others. The Emperor must have assumed they were the ones least likely to answer his summons.

The other nine were called together in the hours before the attack to meet with the Emperor at his citadel. None of them left alive.

Given the evidence I have provided, it's clear that yes, a full-powered Valk is able to do a Ziost like it's Tuesday. He doesn't need to prove anything. It should also be noted that the question presented to Boyd was in reference to the Voice of the Emperor, in which Boyd basically says yes they could be wrong when they say there is only one Voice, which ties perfectly into what I will cover later on.

As for Arcann against Valkorion, if anything it is a testament to Arcann's true power - but mainly, it's just that the Hero thinks he'll need Valkorion's aid. There's no real comparison, unlike with Vaylin where he has watched her displays of power and is constantly reaffirmed of such power; she sees him overpower Valkorion directly. A testament to her power obviously, yet we know Vaylin isn't as strong as Valkorion  as the Outlander surpasses Vaylin and in the final Chapter, Valkorion literally raises his hand and Vaylin falls to the ground.

Dramath is wrong as well. The Holocron was not the instrument of his destruction. Sure, it gave him a powerful amp, but when you try to use it directly against him it fails and Valkorion crushes it instantly - you don't defeat him because of it.

So yes, Valkorion is a grand manipulator, but given the points above Boyd's comment is useless and you've attempted to turn it into something it isn't. He's still incredibly powerful, but obviously not literally omnipotent - nobody is, and I don't think anyone would try and claim that Valkorion absolutely is.


I don't need to comment much on Karpyshyn vs Boyd given I have addressed what Boyd has said vs what the material and other devs show.

D - Mindscapes

Boyd says not too take the mindscapes too literally, but what does he really mean? If the battle took place on a physical realm, then half of those people would have been oneshot instantly. Because they are their minds, their souls, all melded together they can't just die. Nothing in the gameplay or story tells us that things would play out in their favour if thinks we're on a physical realm. Boyd isn't talking about power or Tenebrae's domination over the team. What we should consider is that these mindscapes play out similarly to the real world - the Outlander and co. running around with their sabers, battling Valkorion. They aren't just all trying to overwhelm him with their minds. If anything, Valkorion's timestop would guarantee him a win instantly. He can't use it in a mindscape because time isn't a factor there, he can't manipulate it. As I said before, half of those people would have been ashed within an instant, yet they have the advantage of it being in a mindscape, their true forms and melded together. Think of Beyond Shadows, which is also called a mental plane:



We don't throw out what happened there now, do we? The mindscape is similar in nature to Beyond Shadows: a mental/spiritual realm but also able to interact with things as if physical. Tenebrae is more than capable of repeating EOO but with greater casualties, and I guarantee if you ask Boyd if anything would have played out in the team's favour if on a physical plane then he'd say no. It's very clearly meant to demonstrate Tenebrae's power. Let's also not forget the absurdity of what Tenebrae is doing, which is literally hollowing all of them out completely. Recall that Palpatine needed clones because it was practically impossible on just 1 person, let alone an entire team:

Star Wars D6 wrote:This power allows a character to transfer his or her life energy into another body. The key to immortality itself, this is one of the most difficult and evil of all dark side powers. To overcome a spirit already residing in a body is nearly impossible. This is why the power is nearly useless without the ability to clone host bodies. Though theoretically possible, it is not yet known what the effect on an unborn fetus would be. Fortunately, there is almost no history of this power being used successfully. It is believed that if the user’s body perishes as an attempt fails, the user’s life energy is lost, dispersed to the void.

E - Valkorion's Time Stop

This here is one of, if not, Valkorion's best abilities that can be used in combat - freezing time. This is a topic that has been discussed in the past, but I'm going to outline why it's not stasis, and demonstrate proof of why it is stopping time.



At 10:00, Valkorion stops time - Koth is ahead of the Outlander, yet the Outlander moves past him and when time is unfrozen, look at that, he is in front of him.

At 10:52, Valkorion attempts to use time stop Vaylin - the fact she is able to break through further solidifies it is indeed the manipulation of time, or at the very least some form of stasis. This completely throws what Boyd says on the matter out of the window.



At 0:33 Outlander is right beside Lana and Theron, he then moves all the way to the edge of the balcony and time then resumes, and again he is actually there.



At 20:28 the Outlander can move around and he does so. When he refuses Valkorion’s power, he is in a different position to when time stopped. When it resumes, Heskal continues swinging forward but the Outlander is clearly not in the same position.



At 5:10, the entire planet is frozen, and at 23:42 he projects the Outlander to Vaylin, all the way across the galaxy, and we can see that time there is also frozen.



At 6:30, 11:30, 15:40, Valkorion appears but time is not frozen, because Nathema is a void. If Valkorion can shield Outlander and Lana, surely some simple stasis would be easy for him, right? Time manipulation would be on a whole other level which is why every time he appears on Nathema he doesn't do it. Indeed, when away from Nathema the Outlander straight up calls it timestop:



I can see the counter-arguments already. Maybe it's just stasis? Well then as explained above, when on Voss you can see everything on the planet is completely frozen, all the way up to orbit where the ships are firing down. Then he projects the Outlander to Vaylin who is frozen. The whole thing makes a lot more sense if it's just time freeze, which the Outlander says it is, rather than Valkorion using stasis on entire planets. Another argument would be Boyd's commentary, but as stated above perception altering just doesn't work. The Outlander is far away from when time was unfrozen or has moved when time unfreezes, and Vaylin is able to breach through, so even if he intended for it not to be time-freeze, it is. Why didn't he do this against the Jedi Knight? Well, refer to all the points made in this section. Valkorion had not been at full power and was split, so we can rationalize by saying time-freezing requires a tremendous amount of power. "But Valkorion said himself time hasn't stopped" - this is nothing more than a manipulation tactic to press the Outlander to use his power. The latter having come to understand it as stopping time later anyway.This would also explain why Valk doesn't do this in EoKOTET or in EOO - they're in a mindscape where time has no meaning, ergo heh can't freeze it. Otherwise it would make no sense as to why he doesn't uber-stasis the entire group and kill them off.

It really is a broken ability that is applicable in combat, and only those extremely powerful can break through it as seen with Vaylin, who may only have broken out due to her power and knowledge that he is able to do so - recall she says "Not this time, Father" which implies she knows exactly what it is. With this ability, it's hard to see anyone beating him.

F - Author's Opinions

Hall Hood seems to think that Palpatine and Valkorion are of equal power, but what does this really mean? We don't know Hood's conception of Palpatine, nor has ever worked on anything to do with the character. Simply put, his opinion means nothing. Also, given that you can't specifically recall if Hood said anything power, only that the likened Valkorion to Palpatine, also renders it useless. Valkorion/Vitiate are clearly the Palpatine of the Old Republic - a dark, malevolent, Sith Emperor. The same goes for Drew, just because he doesn't make a distinction doesn't mean anything - he doesn't even make the distinction between OT and DE Sheev.

Valkorion grows immensely through the years - this is completely undeniable. What's also key is that since essentially his entire life, Valkorion's power has always been split.

A - The Split

Despite Boyd (who has contradicted himself on occasions) saying that Vitiate became Valkorion perhaps due to his link with Revan, we know that Valkorion has been around for 1,000 years:



If you look into all the connections surrounding Valkorion this makes complete sense. Zildrog just so happens to be on his homeworld, then he gets curious and goes searching for where it came from which could have lead him to Iokath - Boyd has said Valkorion probably never visited it, but also says that the Zakuul Knights resemble Tyth:

Charles Boyd wrote:You may also notice that his appearance is reminiscent of something in the game as well, uh, these all tie together, uh, for y'know various story reasons."

Valkorion would've had to visit Iokath and see Tyth in order to base the Knights armor on him, and ARIES never even denies that Valkorion. Then Valkorion goes on to discover Zakuul, gets the Fleet and the Gravestone, etc etc. The connections are there and this all makes sense given Valkorion has been around for at least 1,000 years.

Valkorion and Vitiate being split at the same time is also practically confirmed in Vaylin's codex entry:


Which fits perfectly with the quote about the Voice listening to another conversation:

So what does this mean for the Voice the Jedi Knight fights? Well, obviously it’s the same part of Valk in it as there was on the Revan Novel, only much more powerful. The supremacy quotes he gets are about his Vitiate persona; the Emperor, the Voice. They still apply, it just turns out that a fully-whole Valkorion is a lot more powerful than that version which is abundantly evident.



B - Children of the Emperor

We know that Vitiate throughout SWTOR was also split into hundreds of his Children:

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:By the time of the Great War, hundreds of the Emperor's Children were embedded within the Republic. Devoted Jedi, loyal soldiers, and influential politicians all unknowingly served as the Emperor's spies and, when the Emperor willed it, acted to tear down the Republic they held so dear.

And thanks to the latest SWTOR update, these Children were created centuries prior:





Which could explain the agent that was able to defeat Naga Sadow was actually a Child of the Emperor:



C - Tenebrae’s Body

Then you have the final imprint on Tenebrae's body, which could have held some of his power in it, which was created before Revan's time:

Darth Marr wrote:"I can only theorize, but it must have been long before our time. Likely, before even Revan's time"

It makes the most sense as obviously Tenebrae was able to reform himself which he couldn’t just do from nothing, there had to be some inherent power within his body itself. It’s mighty impressive that Tenebrae was able to regain himself, but how does that work? Well, a couple possibilities, with the first being the more probable:

The ritual engraved his body is capable of pulling his spirit from the void. This explains how he keeps his power, and would also explain the loss of memory/knowledge as Palpatine gets similar quotes from when he escaped
Valkorion’s destruction at the end of KOTET saw his spirit return to his body. Recall the wave of energy that almost knocked Satele out from halfway across the galaxy, maybe it was Valkorion’s spirit racing through space to his body. Probably a reach, but I’ll say it anyway:

Satele Shan wrote:I felt the destruction of his spirit from half a galaxy away--a shockwave in the Force that ripped through me with such power I nearly blacked out. I've never felt anything like it before, but I knew instantly what it meant.


At first, I was afraid to believe it was true. But Darth Marr's spirit felt it, too. He confirmed what I'd felt was real, and not some fevered imagining. The master he served for so long--the Sith Emperor that ruled his people for millennia--was no more. This time, he will not return.

Therefore:
- Vitiate has been split in half for over 1,000 years
- Vitiate has been split among children for centuries
- Part of Vitiate's soul is probably still imprinted on his original body
- The ritual in EOO could have pulled his spirit from chaos which would explain how he kept his power and the loss of memory
- This means that Hero beat probably less than 50% of Valkorion, but this doesn’t mean the Voice was weak as the Voice is still getting the supremacy quotes
- Ziost revitalized the other part of Valkorion’s power

This is a far more convincing theory - a fact, rather - that explains the power discrepancies between Vitiate's depictions. When the Hero fought him, it was under half of Valkorion - Boyd's comment on the matter where he claims Vitiate wouldn't risk Valkorion makes absolutely no sense and goes against logic and what the game tells us. But it still took a chunk out of him hence the whole Yavin situation; he needed to regain his lost strength. That is why when we see Valkorion in KOTFE/KOTET, he displays a lot more power - his incredible telekinesis, lightning storm, timestop, etc; he's whole.

D - Discerning Vitiate's Presence and Goals

This claim/theory makes far more sense than Hall Hood claiming that the Hero all but destroyed Vitiate, which opens up a wormhole of contradictions and implausibilities. But just how weak was Vitiate on Yavin? Perhaps not as weak as we had been led to believe.

Satele Shan and Darth Marr struggle to perceive Valkorion through the Force because his presence itself is deceptive - like on Yavin:







Recall that Vitiate on Ziost has realized that life is far more interesting with the Hero in. He has already formulated his plan for KOTFE/KOTET, so what's to say he hadn't already done so? After the Jedi Knight beat him, he decided he was far more interesting and took it upon himself to have a different experience as a mentor and eventually a Hero - which as we know Vitiate wanted to have many different lives. This could explain why Vitiate's dark presence was so overwhelming despite everyone thinking he was practically dead. As for the codex entry, it is true that the Hero weakened him enough he couldn't just bust Yavin but maybe he didn't want to. His followers seemed to know Ziost was going to happen, after all:



As Boyd says, Vitiate plays up his role of being a destroyer in order to lure set forth the events of KOTFE:

Charles Boyd wrote:The events of Shadow of Revan give him the boost he needs to become active again - and he does so in spectacular fashion on Ziost, all while playing up his "evil destroyer of everything" Vitiate persona to the max. He's greatly reinvigorated, he's dealt a significant blow to the Sith Empire (which had been rapidly increasing in strength after Rise of the Hutt Cartel), and he's baited the player and their allies in one fell swoop. All of which leads inexorably to the confrontation in the throne room in the beginning of KOTFE - but why?

Then there's this from Valkorion himself, when talking with the Jedi Knightlander:





Yes, Valkorion claims he had already shifted focus, which falls perfectly-in line with my earlier points.


Which, given the evidence, makes complete sense. A quick summary:

- Vitiate's servants knew Ziost was going to happen
- Vitiate has a deceptive presence in the Force, especially on Yavin
- Vitiate may not have been as near-death as we were led to believe
- Vitiate had already planned out Ziost/KOTFE
- Valkorion had already changed focus to Zakuul centuries before his defeat by the Jedi Knight

E - Vitiate's Incredible Growth

Contrary to what you believe, Vitiate has numerous quotes that all state he had growth:

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:Driven by his quest for immortality and fuelled by the energy sapped from his victims, the Emperor lived for centuries, amassing insurmountable power, rebuilding his exiled Empire, and plotting his ascension to ultimate rule.

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:The Sith Empire's exile dragged on for centuries. While the military, navy, and Sith grew strong, the Emperor amassed unfathomable power and plotted a vengeful war against the Republic. He ruled from the privacy of his chambers in the Citadel, his life extended to virtual immortality by Sith sorcery.

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail. But with no memories of their past lives, the servants have no history and live solely to serve the Emperor.

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:Over the centuries of the Empire's exile, the Emperor continued to develop his power base and guard and unseen threats. In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side. The devastating cost of his actions would remain a mystery in years to come.

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:Burial place, prison, and reliquary, the Dark Temple was built on the orders of the Emperor to seal away powerful artifacts and the Emperor's enemies, both alive and dead. The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives. The temple's twisted, grotesque architecture was specifically designed to focus and contain such corrupt darkness.

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SWTOR: Revan wrote:REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger. Though the two were physically separated by a dozen parsecs, there was still an unbreakable mental link, fashioned by the Emperor and sustained by the infernal machines powering the cell.

It is completely inarguable, and your further points are null. Even just the 300 years between the Novel, Vitiate was feeding on his Servants, Revan, Spirits, delved deeper into the dark side, has ever-increasing power and so on and so forth. He is constantly growing in power. I know you yourself are a big fan of ROTJ >> ROTS Palpatine, yet you won't apply the same logic here? Vitiate delves deeper into the dark side and constantly amasses "unfathomable" power for centuries. Makes you wonder how big of a gap it must be...You claim that these refer to Nathema, when they quite clearly don't; they're all talking about when the Sith Empire are in Exile, which is for a thousand years. He amasses unfathomable upon unfathomable power, and Boyd even says Nathema was the "initial" ultimate power which fits that quite nicely:



As for your point on Vitiate feeding on the Spirits/Revan not directly increasing his power, why else would he feed on them? He doesn't need to starve anything off, and it's not like he's doing it to kill them. He is explicitly draining their power for himself. Regardless, all those other quotes indicate incredible growth and there is no way around it.  So no, your case is not stronger, it's simply wrong.

A - Novel Revan

This might be a hard pill for you to swallow, but Revan has never been competitive with Vitiate. The entire narrative around Vitiate is that he's actually more powerful than anyone thinks; they keep underestimating his abilities. Revan thinks he might be able to beat his conception of Vitiate - which differs wildly to what Vitiate actually is and capable of - but not alone, as you pointed out:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

SWTOR: Revan wrote:Revan charged toward the Emperor.

His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward.

Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time.

The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn’t even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready.

Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.

There was a brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.

He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him. The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy.

Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks.

The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source.

It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan’s spine.

The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Let's dissect this, but more accurately.

1) Vitiate focuses and unleashes a force wave that wipes Revan off his feat
2) Vitiate is attempting to dominate the mind of Revan, but Revan is prepared
3) Revan enters a quasi-oneness state and releases it in his purest form which sends an unprepared Vitiate flying backwards
4) Vitiate rolls over and gets to one knee and fires a single bolt that is strong enough to stop Revan's charge dead in its tracks
5) Vitiate sends out 3 more bolts which Revan deflects, one of them back at Vitiate
6) Angered, Vitiate gathers power and unleashes 12 bolts which overwhelm Revan nigh-instantly

That's all there is to it, Ant. When Vitiate actually tried, Revan was fried. Yes, caught him off unprepared with an incredibly powerful attack, but as soon as the Emperor unleashed a storm it was over. Yes, Vitiate might have been enraged, but Vitiate specifically keeps rage inside him to boil up and then let out as power:



Vitiate gets angry, lets loose with a bit of power and it's game over Revan. It's very simple. You say that he ignored T-3 and Meetra, but why can't that be because they were insignificant? Recall Nihilus struggled to perceive those around him. Those two weren't doing anything in the fight so far. And frankly it's just bad writing. Then you claim he "needed" a "distraction" to unleash another bolt into Revan's chest, but Revan was already on the ground? Sure, he was healing, but there's no mention of Revan gearing up to unleash another oneness blast again. He's just laying there.

Then we go onto Scourge's vision. Scourge was at a crux in history, and he saw millions of different futures. With millions of different futures, it would be ridiculous for there not
to be any outcome where Revan wins. There was probably an outcome where Vitiate self-implodes, or even more grotesque scenarios. It's millions of different outcomes. Yet despite this, Scourge knew they couldn't win:

Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion wrote:The Emperor’s power is too much for Revan. Recognizing that the Emperor is undefeatable, Scourge kills Meetra and betrays Revan.

So yes, there was no real outcome in which the team could have won, per supplementary material and Scourge himself.

Now, there are contradictions in what Scourge tells the Hero, yet everything is still the same - Revan failed, and per himself Revan still underestimated the Emperor:









I know the "he nearly assassinated the Emperor" quote, but what does that really mean when we look at what Revan says, what Scourge says, and what the rest of the Encyclopedia tells us? Revan just failed.

B - Boyd's quote

Boyd's quote isn't what you think it is at all. Revan took a crack at Vitiate, and failed. His same quote talks about Dramath and Vaylin as well; Dramath being insignificant to adolescent Tenebrae, and child Vaylin wasn't a threat at the time. What the player did on Ziost was beat an Emperor-possessed Jedi Master, and failed to stop him. So yes Revan is very much similar in kind what the player does on Ziost, which is fail to stop him. Revan is evidently not a "legitimate threat" to Vitiate, much like Dramath and kid Vaylin were not. Funny how he doesn't use the Hero of Tython, as you actually do what Revan couldn't and beat the Emperor. Revan is clearly not a threat in a one-on-one situation, given everything I have covered above and will cover below.

C - Foundry Revan

There is a strange stance that Foundry Revan is incredibly weakened and nowhere near his full power. I ask for evidence against what I will present below.

Firstly, Revan gained centuries of knowledge and was constantly being replenished by Meetra's spirit:

SWTOR: Revan wrote:As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war

Whilst yes, having sacrificed some sanity, he is mainly just steeped in hate and returned back to his Jedi Civil War ways of thinking - which is war.





Just taking a look at the cutscenes, Revan never seems crazed. He failed to destroy Vitiate, and now believes the only way it is possible to destroy the Sith is through war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0vjkirL2U&ab_channel=HokieGamer

Foundry Revan is still able to do what his Novel incarnation was, and that is use both light and dark simultaneously:



And quite clearly the quotes which state Revan has become more powerful. These quotes should also include his Novel version, as he is called a Jedi throughout the Encyclopedia:

SWTOR wrote:Revan has become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of

Revan has become more powerful than you could possibly imagine

He might have lost a bit of sanity, but he just returned back to JCW ways of thinking and was still more powerful than ever, having gained "centuries of knowledge." This Revan doesn't seem weakened at all, and if you refer back to the other sections you'd know that this means only one of the protagonists really faced him, as flashpoints share the same fallacies as Operations, and with explicit solo options. But before you mention the Imperial Strike team quote, the Encyclopedia also says Vitiate died to a Jedi Strike team, which isn't true. They only say strike team because they can't conform to one class:



So even if you don't want to say he's up to par with his Novel variant, he shouldn't be far off. This, partnered with the evidence above shows very clearly that Revan isn't a match for Vitiate. But let's talk about Shadow of Revan.

D - Shadow of Revan

I'll preface this by saying Shadow of Revan is a convoluted mess - subpar writing that creates many contradictions/problems. Hell, Charles Boyd completely forgot about Scourge in this expansion.

You've done a good job explaining that everyone agrees nobody can beat Vitiate. Refer to my earlier points though - he may not be as weak as he seemed, and he knew this was coming. Given that it is repeated by numerous characters, I think it is an endorsement by the writers because they want to portray that Vitiate is more powerful than we think.
As established earlier, yes, if Vitiate were to awaken at full power then he would be able to just destroy Yavin. But frankly nothing you say takes away from the fact that it's so evidently established that a fully powered Valkorion would be able to beat Revan. We see this in EOO, and later I'll talk about Revan being bound by some quotes.

Given Revan's growth, yes, he could definitely beat the Voice we see in SWTOR. You can't really get around that, but what you can get around is why that is. The Vitiate on Yavin might be wounded because he isn't as near death as it may seem, but that part of him that's on Yavin is really only half. Revan has grown to the point that yes, he can beat Novel Vitiate, but not the Valkorion we see later.

As for the Hero/Revan dynamic, there's a few things here. First, I have already dissected the Operation, but let's talk about the trailers. The trailers portray an entirely different sequence of events, and the game resorts back to the Hero being the #1 guy right after:





They portray Hero vs Revan clashing and the armies fighting each other. In the fight itself, Hero is doing all of the work which is clearly from the gameplay. Shown from the trailer where Satele fights Revan, it seems to be a 1v1. Maybe they're all just taking turns on him lol.

Satele Shan wrote:Your work against Revan and his followers has been truly exceptional. And your expertise in combating the Emperor is second to none"

Then you have Ziost where you stand up against Vitiate like Revan did per Boyd, so the game does a complete 180 after Shadow of Revan, due to it's sloppy writing.

What does all of this tell us, though?

- Revan doesn't face all the protagonists in Shadow of Revan
- The trailers portray a different sequence of events
- The Hero still does most of the legwork
- In the trailers that you yourself for Revan wank, it shows Satele 1v1ing Revan
- Right after, it's back to Hero supremacy and Satele says his work against Revan was exceptional and that his expertise in fighting Vitiate are second to none
- Yes, Revan can beat the Voice and Novel Vitiate, but not a fully-powered Valkorion

E - The Mental War

Revan holding back Vitiate was impressive, however you're attempting to turn it into something it's not. Valkorion wasn't for 300 years ripping into Revan's mind at every second, but he still managed to gain every secret bar the Foundry. Sure, he failed to turn him to Darth Revan, but afterward Revan had been steeped in hatred for 300 years and reverted back to his warmongering ways. That he and the Dread Masters couldn't break Revan, however, is still a testament to Revan's incredible willpower, and that I am not denying. Revan didn't outright TP Vitiate, indeed it was "subtle" that Boyd (who you love) seems to completely forget and say that Valk caused the treaty because of Arcann and Thexan:

Charles Boyd wrote:Then, Vitiate abruptly stops the war, proposes a treaty claiming seemingly-random planets, and starts the Cold War. An obscure step in his plan to complete the ritual? Makes sense, though if we look at how old Valkorion's children appear to be, they'd be getting born right around this time... coincidence?

Regardless, the Encyclopedia still makes note of the limitations of Revan, stating that not even he could hold the Emperor at bay:



We need to also take into account the fact that Revan only had one sole focus as he couldn't do anything else and was constantly being replenished by Meetra. Regardless though, it's incredibly impressive, and does make sense he was able to do that to half of Valkorion - which is also another funny thing, as Revan had absolutely no clue that the guy whose mind he was directly linked to and gained from was also living another life across the galaxy.

So Revan is certainly impressive and scales above Novel Vitiate/The Voice, but is the gap between him and the Hero that big? Probably not, given all the evidence above. SOR is a convoluted mess, so hopefully the points I have made have tried to fix in a far better manner. I also won't comment on what you've said about the Hero because it's all true; he's an insane powerhouse.

I feel the need to share these quotes here, and this will only be a small section.The Terror From Beyond has direct quotes placing him above Soa, Vitiate, and everyone you've faced beforehand:











The quotes speak for themselves. Lotek'k is capable of destroying the galaxy, is the most fierce, deadly, and challenging enemy yet and a creature of unprecedented scale. These quotes cap the Voice, which bring down your arguments of Voice/Hero supremacy as well.

A- Arcann

There's more to it than this, but I'm assuming what you're looking for is direct quotes that would show Arcann > Voice, Revan, etc. Luckily, Arcann has quotes that he benefits from that put him over Revan/the Voice. What are they? Well to start, KOTFE is the "ultimate combat test":



And then there's Spirit Valk's supremacy, where your battle with him is numerously stated to be "your most intense confrontation yet", and the vision-esque battle with Vaylin your "greatest test", which can also be applied to Spirit Valk given they are in the same Chapter:







intense - of extreme force, degree, or strength, extreme and forceful or (of a feeling) very strong

Chapter 9 is about preparing you to face Arcann, this is where you must confront Valkorion, get a boost, create a new weapon and grow beyond light and dark. Fighting Spirit Valk is preparation for your even greater fight against Arcann, and those quotes put your battle with him > every fight prior, which includes the Voice and Revan. I know you may think Valkorion is attempting to be manipulative in the following quote, but is he really when the whole chapter is about you growing strong enough to fight Arcann?



Regardless, they're solid quotes that Arcann definitely scales from.

Another thing to talk about here is the fact that the Hero of Tython still needs to grow beyond light and dark. Sure, he may not accept it, but he still became the "commander of the will of the Force," got juiced up by Valkorion and had a new lightsaber created. Again Boyd is saying you don't have to agree with it because not everyone is going to like that idea of their character doing so. Instead we must look at it from an IU perspective, the Jedi Knight - why would he not accept this transition into a new philosophy? Even if you don't accept it you still focus on things like winning no matter the cost; you must go all out, etc. Him being the Hero of Tython doesn't change the fact he still needs to undergo these changes in order to beat Arcann. Recall that the Outlander JK and Valkorion speak about him beating the Voice; it's not forgotten about.








So no matter how you look at it, Arcann benefits from the quotes which put the Spirit Valkorion fight > every fight prior, the Hero still needs to undergo these changes and it's still remembered how he beat Vitiate in KOTET. Arcann is just stronger. Outlander thinking maybe a far stronger Valk needs him against Arcann, whereas in SOR he doesn’t think Revan can beat him is another indicator as well. The evidence piles up, and not in Revan’s favor.

---

B - Vaylin

I don't need to go over how amazingly powerful she is, you've already done that, nor do I need to go over Outlander's clear superiority to her. But, Vaylin as well gets a quote which puts her > everyone before as well:



I have already touched on this above, but it should apply to Vaylin given it's her in the picture.



And that's that. Vaylin is your greatest fight yet, despite anything you have done in the past. This, partnered with her benefitting of Spirit Valk > everyone prior, is clear evidence that Vaylin is above the Voice and Revan. Let's not forget she benefits from the "ultimate combat test" quote as well.

Aside from the obvious quotes, when it comes to her compared to Revan, as established earlier Revan just doesn’t compare to Valkorion. Vaylin does, Valkorion actually fears her power/potential and the Outlander himself thought Vaylin was stronger than him.

I won't talk about your arguments about the Hero of Tython vs Yoda, or Valkorion Sheev - there are many, many arguments for that. But I will touch upon your third point, where you talk about Valkorion showing "deeper reserves". Taking a look at the evidence I have provided, it seems clear that it's because Valkorion is actually at full power; he's fully whole, none of this "Balloon Theory" shtick that relies on an observation from Scourge in the Novel. Tenebrae in EOO has realized the mistakes of his prior forms, and he is whole.

Now it's time for concluding points:

- Revan has grown beyond Novel Vitiate, but still can't beat a fully-whole Valkorion who is incredibly more powerful than his novel variant

- The Outlander should be the Hero of Tython and is evidently above the likes of Vaylin and Revan

- The Outlander still caps over Hero of Tython

- Valkorion has always been split until KOTFE/EOO

- Valkorion has had incredible growth throughout the years

- Terror from Beyond is stated above Vitiate that Hero faces

- Arcann and Vaylin are essentially stated to be above everyone prior and have tons of favorable evidence

- Hero beat under 50% of Valkorion in Act 3, but that doesn’t mean the Voice is weak as he still gets supremacy quotes

- Valkorion's mindscape fight should translate to a physical realm, but more so in his favour

- A scaling chain would be: Voice << Terror from Beyond << Revan << Arcann <<<< Vaylin <<< Outlander <<< Valkorion